Ep5 - John Will - The Evolution of Modern BJJ

In this engaging conversation, John Will, one of the first non-Brazilian Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts, shares his journey into martial arts, the evolution of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and the impact of competition on the sport. He discusses effective teaching methodologies, the importance of curiosity in continuous learning, and the future of BJJ in terms of Gi and No-Gi training. John emphasizes the significance of building a positive coaching culture, the role of storytelling in teaching, and the value of community in martial arts. He also reflects on personal growth, memorable experiences, and the importance of sharing knowledge within the martial arts community.

Takeaways

John Will's journey into martial arts began with being bullied at school.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's culture has evolved significantly over the years.

Competition has driven the development of new techniques in BJJ.

Effective teaching requires prioritizing communication and class design.

Curiosity is essential for continuous learning in martial arts.

The future of BJJ will likely include both Gi and No-Gi training.

Coaches must model the behavior they want to see in their students.

Storytelling is a powerful tool for engaging students in martial arts.

Personal growth is a continuous journey for martial artists.

Sharing knowledge is crucial for the growth of the martial arts community.

Chapters

00:00 The Journey into Martial Arts

03:02 Exploring Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's Evolution

06:07 The Impact of Competition on BJJ

09:12 Teaching Methodologies in Martial Arts

12:16 The Role of Storytelling in Coaching

15:05 Future Trends in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

28:00 Integrating Techniques Across Martial Arts Styles

30:12 Establishing a Positive Coaching Culture

32:39 The Continuous Journey of Learning

36:57 Memorable Experiences in Martial Arts

39:37 Influential Figures in Martial Arts

45:04 The Importance of Sharing Knowledge

Transcript

Ross Cameron (00:02.865)
Hi, welcome to It's Not About The Fight. Today I'm lucky to be talking to a gentleman who was one of the first 12 non-Brazilian Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts in the world. He's considered the father of Australian Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He's an author. He's a gifted storyteller. And I've been a tester lots of stories from John over the years. And it's John Wills. Welcome aboard, John.

John Will (00:30.695)
Thanks for having me, Ross. It's a pleasure.

Ross Cameron (00:34.107)
So I'd like to start off with just a couple of simple questions, because they sound simple just to me, but what got you involved in martial arts in the first place?

John Will (00:47.662)
Well, my wife is laughing at that question because I've... What's the question I first asked everyone else? It's like, it's probably, it's not even, it's not an interesting story. You know, it's the same story that I bet 70, 80 % of us have same thing. I was bullied at school. My father moved around a little bit. He was a police officer.

Ross Cameron (00:53.893)
Hahaha.

John Will (01:11.81)
So in moving around, I was always a new kid in school halfway through the term. So the pecking order was already established, you know, and I was also the sort of personality that I would never start any confrontations or anything, but I would also never take a step backwards. So, you know, I was in my share of fights at school with bullies, you know, it's just the bullies, right? Trying to pick on the new kid who's turned up halfway through the year and

Ross Cameron (01:33.905)
Ha

John Will (01:43.114)
So I found myself doing that and then I guess, you know, that's probably started my interest. And then I took up wrestling. My first ever training was wrestling when I was like in grade nine, took up wrestling. Because I, what I soon worked out in these fights in the schoolyard situation where it's just one on one.

You know, was like double leg takedown mount on top ground and pound. I mean, that's that worked every single time. So I thought I'll just get better at that rather than thinking I should get better at things I'm not good at. So then I kind of. Just after that, Bruce Lee hit the scene with the movies, so I then went, well, let's do that. So that was then I started with bit of Gojuki.

Ross Cameron (02:30.982)
Yep.

John Will (02:36.972)
Then I jumped to Taekwondo. And then I was still, so then I was kind of mixing it up, Wrestling with striking. So some kind of very proto MMA.

Ross Cameron (02:50.971)
Yeah, I had, I had a very similar story. Like I was started in judo when I was four under Ivan Willis in New Zealand. And then, I must've been nine, 10, maybe I had an altercation at school and I've done an outside of Gary taking the kid down, locked him up in, in, in Kesa-Gatame And he's bit the inside of my leg and I've gone, now you've got to go learn how to punch. So I went off.

John Will (03:17.538)
Ha

Ross Cameron (03:19.739)
to Kempo Karate, which is just up at the local school. And then from Kempo, went on to Shotokan and then on to Taekwondo and then more and more and more. So yeah.

John Will (03:33.55)
Yeah, when my school ended, I was, I used to read books. There's some behind me there. And one of the books, one of the people that inspired me, weren't many books, there were no DVDs, there was no internet, of course, back then. But one of the authors that inspired me was Don Drager. You probably remember that name. And he traveled extensively through India, Southeast, especially Southeast Asian archipelago. So I just said, I'll follow in his footsteps. So as soon as I was 17,

I finished school early, well, I completed year 12, but as a 17 year old, I kind of jumped ahead in school. And then I went overseas and just flew to Indonesia and kind of...

Ross Cameron (04:18.703)
Yeah, and you lived in Indonesia and studied salat and all sorts of things. So

John Will (04:22.88)
Yeah, lots of different kinds of silat and then Thailand, Thai boxing, then India wrestling and kind of did a whole bunch of stuff. So yeah, that was.

Ross Cameron (04:32.442)
So how did you get from doing that stuff down to Brazil?

John Will (04:39.738)
Well, I started the magazine. Some listeners might remember the magazine Blitz. Yeah. So I started that magazine as a way of, you know, trying to make ends meet and also as an, really as an excuse to...

Ross Cameron (04:46.467)
I've been in Blitz Magazine quite a few times.

John Will (05:00.398)
you know, travel and just train because I mean, there's no there's no future in money wise in traveling and training. But I thought, well, if I if I do that, and I make some stories and whack him in a I can sell some magazines. And so I started that magazine. And that did it did make me a very modest living. But more importantly, you know, so it allowed me to keep doing what I wanted to do. So part it was part of that. That that I

I got a story from a guy in Sydney who said there was a Brazilian guy come out here and he made a challenge for $50,000, winner take all, no rules. We're talking about, don't know what year it was, 1985 or something. So no one had $50,000, that's ridiculous. That would have literally been a house, one and a half homes.

So no one took him up on it, but it was a story, no rules challenge. was like, wow, people weren't doing that at that time. No one took him up on it. So it was me following up that story. who was this guy? Brazil? Isn't that capoeira? And it was me chasing that down the rabbit hole that ended up taking me over to Los Angeles where I met.

Horian Gracie, Hickson Gracie and Hoyce, it was a kid then. And I met Higgin Machado, who was like an 18 year old kid. We became really good friends. And he said, come down to Brazil with me. And we've been friends ever since.

Ross Cameron (06:33.167)
Yep. And, and you got involved in some of the Gracie challenges back in the day. How, how did that happen? How, how, was it?

John Will (06:41.422)
Thank

Well, everyone did. mean, it wasn't me, right? That was the culture. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was not about self-defense in those days. And it wasn't about normal people. When I say normal people, with mortgages and lives, it wasn't about those people training. They didn't train. It was just about freaks. Martial art freak show. So, you know, people who consider themselves to be fighters.

non-traditional martial arts guys. And BJJ was just about fighting other styles. That's what it was about, right? It was about, it wasn't about even self-defense in the street. It was about, no, we're going to train to fight the karate guys, the Taekwondo guys, and that's who we are training to be. So naturally, what would happen in LA,

Ross Cameron (07:13.883)
Yeah, I did the live on the floor, dojo, all that experience, because that's...

Ross Cameron (07:36.827)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (07:41.972)
Even here when I was starting, people would come through the door and say, well, let's have a go. we take them down and them out.

Ross Cameron (07:48.855)
I remember back in the day, the old Zen Do Kai guys used to have the dojo storming and that going on everywhere. So yeah, it did happen.

John Will (08:01.578)
Yeah, yeah, it was fun. They come to my school one night, Bob Jones and Craig Larson, a few bunch of four five of them came down to my school one night, all kind of came in. I said, get on the mat. And they went, no, Bob said, no, we'll just sit down and watch first. So they all sat down and watched to my disappointment because I was up, you know, up for anything. And. And one of them came in late. was.

Ross Cameron (08:20.049)
you

John Will (08:32.108)
Damien Martin, think his name was? And he was there, he was there, grappler. And he came in late. So I headed him off at the door before he got to talk to them and said, usher him into the change room, get your gear on. And I got him on the mat. It was awesome. I made sure that we fought right in front of them. I will say no more about it, but they bought me dinner at the end.

Ross Cameron (08:49.67)
Ha ha ha!

Ross Cameron (08:54.993)
Yep.

Ross Cameron (09:00.337)
So it's interesting, where Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu started from and where it is now, do you see there's a big, swing in the way it's taught, the way it's understood, the development of it, where it's going?

John Will (09:17.836)
Yeah. Huge. mean, you know, there's there are different there are different styles of BJJ schools. I would say different culture. Right. And obviously there are still little, you know, pockets around of people just practicing like that. It's more scrappy. You know, you're in there and gloves on and punching away and doing all things. So there's that.

Then there's much more common, you know, the competition based schools, which, which I think is responsible for 95 % of all the development in BJJ. You know, without those schools, we wouldn't have the plethora of techniques, the thousand techniques that we've got now. You know, there's new things. I mean, I've developed things in these last couple of weeks that are just absolutely brand new and super highly effective and you can do it from lots of, so that, takes a long time to

Ross Cameron (09:57.669)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (10:15.394)
you know, to have that, that approach and have enough in your head before you can say, shoot, I can connect those things up that have never been connected before. So that takes time. And we have got numbers of people who got, you got a number, lots of brains on it. You've got internet, which spreads the idea in a nanosecond. And so I think the competition audience would like, they're really, that's where all the development is. And then you've just got schools that are about

Ross Cameron (10:17.21)
Yet the undis-

Ross Cameron (10:34.808)
yep.

John Will (10:45.452)
you know, making better people like, you know, teaching people how to get stuff off the mat and into their life and, and, know, fitness, martial arts, he's done. So this is quite a lot. It's really good that the landscape has all these different aspects in it, you know, and then, and even then this very specialized to for, you know, special operations and military and government agency needs.

Ross Cameron (10:54.533)
Yeah, the martial arts side of it. Yep.

John Will (11:14.158)
which is fighting in cars. So it's all, there's a lot of places you can...

Ross Cameron (11:21.743)
Yeah. And, and, like you say, with understanding how, how your BJJ relates to, to grappling with a guy who's got a chest plate on or a head gear and a helmet and a GoPro and a weapon and all that stuff, it all changes the game. So the games have all these little, little nuances everywhere.

John Will (11:41.582)
There's endless opportunities for going down rabbit holes and specialization. So there's not, you know, and I think that it's that kind of complexity on the BJJ landscape that is very, that keeps you there. That complexity, think simplicity will get you there. You know, you can do a very little and it could be highly effective.

big return on small investment in time, but I don't think simplicity keeps you there for 30, 40, 50 years. I think complexity keeps you there for that time.

Ross Cameron (12:10.693)
No, it's the level of, it's that level of understanding too. So like you say, there's so many different rabbit holes and you go down a rabbit hole and you can go as deep as you wanna go. And the chess game just changes with that. And then the next rabbit hole is just as deep. Yeah.

John Will (12:20.664)
Mm.

John Will (12:28.072)
Yeah, yeah. So there's plenty to keep us interested. There's no excuse to be bored.

Ross Cameron (12:31.761)
No, no. And, and, I know that you're a big studier of all sorts of things. So do you, do you see that the growth of BJJ has been?

increased because of the internet and YouTube and tutorials rather than the books. like back in our day, you'd be lucky to find a video anywhere. And that's VHS video.

John Will (13:04.35)
Yeah. Well, it's no coincidence, Ross, that the internet happened about the same time as the UFC. You know, and the UFC popped up about the same time, I think within a year or something 1993, whatever. So and then the and even then it was a bit of a lag, but it was between, you know, as mid 90s to 2000s, where the internet become a thing. And that that that

is what I would attribute to the growth of BJJ2. Well, not just that, but I mean, if it had been a little fad, you know, where there wasn't much depth to it, then maybe it wouldn't have lasted. But it kicked off. That's what launched it into the stratosphere. And then after that, the complexity was the booster rocket that keeps it going now.

you know, because there's something in it for everybody.

Ross Cameron (14:03.739)
So.

What do you think is the difference between what makes a good martial arts instructor and a fantastic one? Is it the planning? Is it curriculum? Is it the way they can talk and get stories across? it biomechanical understanding? What do you think is the difference?

John Will (14:23.936)
All those things, but I mean, we have to prioritize them. So, you know, what makes the biggest difference and what makes the second biggest difference? And you have to figure out the 50 things that make someone a good coach, but probably, I mean, the obvious things like comms, you good communication skills, ability to break down, you know, something, you know, into digestible parts so that everyone can do it. You know, if there's enough dots in the picture, we can all draw the same airplane.

So we want higher resolution teaching, meaning that, you know, if you do the job well, everyone should get the same aeroplane as and that's about resolution, which is about pixels per square inch. In other words, the number of steps. as long as that's clear, that basic that's very simple. You can teach people to do that.

Basic communications you can teach people to do that. The harder thing, but I think it's the actual thing that makes the biggest difference over time is design, class design. Yeah. I mean, you can pick anything like a subject or even aim a thing like a double leg, like a simple, simple technique. Or you can pick a, you know, a little, a little clump of techniques like how does high crotch go with single, go with double and how do they relate to each other as a little package.

Ross Cameron (15:25.233)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (15:43.894)
and then can go bigger again. it's, if you're teaching, those three things, let's just stick with something most people would know, like a high crotch, which is a head outside single, a double leg, and then a single leg. So you've got this simple little idea, but you then have to ask, okay, so there's a bunch of things there. What order should I teach them in? Like,

If I taught that, that, then that, then that, would that be different than if I taught that before that, before that, before that? So A, B, C, D, or is it A, C, B, D, or is it? And then you have, you'll find with work and time and practice and experience that there absolutely is an optimal order. And if you don't get the optimal order, you won't get the same cake. It's not just the ingredients might be butter, eggs, milk, flour, but the order that you put them in really

Ross Cameron (16:24.102)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (16:35.766)
affects the outcomes. Yeah, so that's hard because that takes experience, right? So imagine doing that with cooking or with doing it with anything. You could be left or doing it with ecological learning. You could be there for years trying to figure out which is the best order. And if you are left to your own devices. What's helped me a lot is a habit that I've had for the last, well, ever since the...

Ross Cameron (16:35.823)
Yeah, it the cake.

Ross Cameron (16:57.35)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (17:04.832)
internet, is I take notes on every class. I debrief myself after every class. What I taught, what order I taught it in, and I've got many, many thousands, tens of thousands of notes, which now is easy because there's an app called Notes, you know, and you've got subcategories of this and it's into the cloud. So it's really good. But so I do that and I've taught about 28,000, over 28,000 classes.

Ross Cameron (17:22.616)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

John Will (17:34.702)
So after you teach, crucifix, you know, and the eight ways to get in there, and then the 10 different finishes there, and then the transitions from crucifix, when you do that a number of times, like 30 times over a space of 30 years, you slowly kind of inch your hot, cold, hotter, colder, hotter, colder, you zero in on, I absolutely need to teach it this way first, then that, then that, then this other thing later.

So you find an optimal order. So that's not as easy, you know, just to get someone to do it because it takes experience. But I think to answer your question, that's very...

Ross Cameron (18:11.601)
Yeah, and when you're talking to people and trying to get the points across to people, some people absorb it different ways. So you have to teach half the class one way almost and half a class the other way and use different analogies for the different people. it's interesting concepts.

John Will (18:33.397)
Yeah, think. Yeah, that's basic, basic, just basic common, basic communications, you know, using using analogies, telling stories and and and telling the same thing different ways so that people get the idea from different angles. Yeah, I mean, the mechanics of teaching is a very interesting concept. I've got quite a bit of work. Not in the martial arts community, the government is is.

you know, putting together training programs of how to train trainers. And so, and that's where I had to do a lot of thinking about, well, what does make a great trainer different from a good trainer? And then can you teach them that? know, how to do that. And some things are easy to teach. So the mechanics of teaching are easy to teach.

Ross Cameron (19:11.729)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (19:24.366)
then there's those other little points. Pulling, you know, so if someone's a polymath and they've got engineering and then they've also got psychology and they've got a degree in linguistics, you know, something, and being able to pull the different tools from those different, because the tools you have for engineering, you know, that's a great tool set. And if you apply that in a sphere of engineering,

You look, you might even look good, but everyone in engineering is using the tools a similar way. When you pull the engineering set of tools and you put it over into, you know, some other crazy field, you look like, wow, you look like a genius because. So I think that's kind of something that's people now, I think you've got to be able to pull from a lot of different fields. Now that's something that you can't teach in a two month or three month course.

Ross Cameron (20:02.467)
Yeah.

John Will (20:18.029)
Right?

Ross Cameron (20:19.109)
Yeah, and it's, sometimes you've got to lead the way and let them find the mistakes themselves so they actually understand it deeper. And sometimes you have to tell them what they need to do to build that skills.

John Will (20:35.596)
Yeah, yeah.

Ross Cameron (20:37.169)
So what keeps you motivated to keep training? How many years you've been on the mat? Like me, like 60 years almost.

John Will (20:48.942)
I've been on the map my whole adult life. So I'd say 40 years, you know, probably. mean, well, more than that. Right. Right. 55. Yeah. I probably less. Probably 50 for me. Yeah. 50. Well, 52 years or so. But what keeps me motivated? To me, it's a weird thing like motivation. Like, I don't need motivation because I'm naturally curious.

Ross Cameron (20:54.001)
This is my 55th year of training.

John Will (21:18.518)
So, you know, if you're naturally curious, you don't need motivating You know, you're in there with a shovel digging, you know, digging for gold all the time. so, yeah, I think that that's kind of like in my DNA to be curious and always sceptics, mildly sceptical about everything.

So a mixture of curiosity, being skeptical, you know, that those things make me keep learning, you every day.

Ross Cameron (21:52.719)
Yeah, I'd say people, I get up every morning and I go and do Ross stuff. I get up and I just solve the next problem that I've got or the the next piece of intrigue that I have that I want to go down the rabbit hole on. I just get up every morning and do that stuff.

John Will (22:06.572)
Yeah.

Well, we're lucky with the internet. mean, wow. You know, it just makes it so easy. I

Ross Cameron (22:13.726)
Ha

yeah, I think back to when I was when I was fighting and there was nothing. You either learnt the skills directly from somebody or you try to read it from a book. But that was it. So these young guys have got so much an advantage. It's not funny.

John Will (22:31.393)
Yeah.

John Will (22:37.25)
Well, yeah, when you develop a taste for nuance and detail, but you haven't got access to information, you're left to your pure horsepower of your mind. And that varies so much from person to person. But you can just be a very average learner. And if you develop it,

taste for attention to detail, can go and find as much detail as you want. And know, you can get on line with tenured professors and at no cost and sitting on their lectures. And I mean, wow, you know, it's awesome.

Ross Cameron (23:12.741)
Yeah,

Ross Cameron (23:16.517)
Yep, it's where you want to spend your time now. That's the difference. My daughter did some time at Oxford and I can get on and watch the lectures that she learned so I can have a more in-depth conversation with her. Yeah.

John Will (23:30.438)
that's awesome. That's fantastic. She'd be miffed. She'd be coming home expecting to fucking to lay it on you and you can fire back.

Ross Cameron (23:40.461)
she does. She does. She's, she's now she's now a high end lawyer for the government and loves to argue. Yeah. Yeah. So I know you tell really fantastic stories. Do you see that as a, as a skill that's helped you become the quality of coach you are that the storytelling or that you lead people with that storytelling?

John Will (23:48.38)
that's great.

John Will (24:11.626)
Yeah, I mean, it's something, it's something. But storytelling, I guess, is like tied to, it's kind of like, it's just a little attribute, right? Like that would be like someone being strong or fast or flexible and storytelling is kind of a similar idea. But I think really good in-depth understanding of your subject matter.

and design of how you deliver that, I would place more weight on that than storytelling. Storytelling will keep people's attention and you do have to abide by rule number one with teaching is you've got to build some rapport. I mean, if you're not building rapport, it doesn't matter how great your information is, you're not listening to you. So there's some of that. So to answer your question, I think there's some of that, but

Ross Cameron (24:58.993)
Yeah, if you lose their interest in the first 10 seconds, it's gone.

John Will (25:07.886)
You don't want to jump. I don't think people would want to rest on that, you know, and have that's their main thing. But it helps.

Ross Cameron (25:17.563)
So.

Where do you see BJJ going in the next 20 years? Is no Gi gonna take over? Is Gi gonna disappear?

John Will (25:30.606)
I don't know. mean, I think it'll just like we do both, Gi and no Gi And the way I do it is we have in the advanced class, I've got beginners, which I teach very differently because the way that class is designed,

is very different from the novice class, which is different from the intermediate class, different from the advanced. But with the advanced class, we have no game and we have season. So in other words, from Easter to November, it's Gi And then from November to Easter, it's no Gi And at the end of every one of those time periods, everyone's keen to do the switch.

So it's kind of, right, it just keeps it all fresh. And you know yourself, there's things you'll do with a Gi that you can't do, no Gi and vice versa. So everyone will be going, great, gig next week. But by the time we get to Easter next year, I mean November, they'll be going, great, no gig. So I think people want that.

Ross Cameron (26:39.973)
Yep. Yeah, we, especially in Queensland, when they get to summer, they're going, let's get rid of the Gi

John Will (26:45.646)
Well, was my reasoning too, initially, but it just worked out to be six months of each. my point is that people like both. So I don't see the end of the game. No, I don't see that. think it's going to be game and it's going to be no game. think what, you know, something that I believe in and I don't see a lot of is a little bit more.

Ross Cameron (26:56.763)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (27:13.92)
like gloves on, shell up, learning, having ways to get in and clinch and do things while someone's striking you and stuff. There'll be a little bit of growth in that area, I think, as time goes on, a little bit more growth in that area, but it's harder than that. Pardon?

Ross Cameron (27:29.521)
dealing with the reality side of things.

John Will (27:35.404)
Yeah, it's hard. The design is harder for that because to do that in a really safe, progressive and structured way requires a fair bit of design capability. know, I mean, you know, anyone can throw on some gloves and punch on. I that's not what I'm talking about. So, so to design really great classes that give measurable outcomes after even one or two classes, you know, that, that requires something special.

Ross Cameron (27:48.731)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (28:04.462)
Whereas, you can, you don't need that design capability just to run a no-Gi class or to run a Gi class. There's plenty of material. can just kind of copy and paste and do it. But I think that's a little harder. That's why I think it'll be bit slower.

Ross Cameron (28:20.731)
Yeah. I did a seminar a couple of weeks ago on how to just stand up. And it was for Taekwondo and karate guys and Kenpo guys who go, you know, I'm just going to stay on my feet. And I was like, well, what if you're pinned? How do you get back to your feet? We just did get to the inside position, make frames and exit simple stuff that, that will get them there. If they really work on it, but you've got to have some of those skills. If you don't. Yeah.

John Will (28:50.693)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of room for these little like, like, like you just described, these little bolt on ideas that all kinds of martial artists can just use that bolt that on to, you know, because they don't want to switch over, they don't want to, they're too dedicated to what they're doing. And but they're very up for, oh, give me this thing, I can bolt onto that, I'll take that.

Ross Cameron (29:16.165)
Yeah, I've got, I've got friends that are sort of eight Dan's and Taekwondo and things like that. And, and they're never going to change styles. So for me to teach them bolt-on bits, add-ons where they can learn to get back to their feet, or they can learn more angle cuts or controls. That that's where I see a fair bit of growth.

John Will (29:28.14)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it because there's an endless amount of those niches.

Ross Cameron (29:41.873)
Yeah, yeah, I do a little bit with the boys out at the Enoggera base here and it's the same stuff. It's just like, okay, how do you control somebody? Get them down, pin them, keep control over them, not get entangled, exit. Simple stuff.

John Will (29:54.808)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, nice.

Ross Cameron (30:00.869)
So what advice would you give somebody who's like starting as a coach going forward and how do you deal with athletes and how do you keep their egos in check or boost the right ego or do all that sort of stuff?

John Will (30:18.958)
Culture is king. You got to set the right culture. And the culture doesn't start from the bottom. The culture starts from the top, as we all know. And, you know, it's the coach and the first set of disciples. So the coaches top people, they are the ones that everyone else is looking at when they come in.

So if they behave a certain way, 99 out of 100 people will go, oh, that's how we're supposed to behave while we're in this tribe and they'll do it. So that's the thing. And I've seen people, schools not doing that. They're trying to get all the newbies, the ones that are just starting or have only done a couple of years and they're trying to get them to behave a certain way when the top people aren't.

Ross Cameron (30:57.489)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (31:17.516)
That's not gonna happen. So I think that's one of the things, just be aware that eyeballs are on you and the top people. So you gotta take care of yourself. Number one, how you're behaving and living and acting in the world is gonna influence everyone else. Yeah.

Ross Cameron (31:36.291)
makes a big difference. You're the mirror of what your students are gonna do. Yeah.

John Will (31:40.78)
Yeah. So that's probably, you know, that's really good advice. And again, if you're telling them to have integrity, you better have it. If you're telling them to have good character, well, you better have it. If you're telling them to be authentic, well, you better have it. So I think most martial arts coaches shouldn't be concerned too much about their students. They should work on themselves and then everything will just work out.

Ross Cameron (32:05.669)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because over the years you see those and it's almost the military thing, you know, where they expect the officers to do the right things because everybody's eyes on them. And if they don't do the right things, then it all falls over and they start that everyone starts asking the questions and finding the holes and then it all falls to custard. So.

John Will (32:22.904)
Yeah.

John Will (32:27.744)
Yeah. I also think that like when people were starting out coaching, like, let's just say that that's, you know, they've got a black belt in Jiu Jitsu. Let's just say. So another thing I would say is one of the things that I did, which, which was, and I still do it is you've been training 10 years, you've got a black belt now. And it's time to start again. It's time to now.

go and look at everything that you think you know, like day one, but you're looking at it through the new lens of your newly acquired, freshly minted black belt brain. And when you look at the same old thing, but through the new lens, it's a different thing. So my advice is to just keep doing that. Like, because we are different, you know, if you're learning and sharpening yourself as a human being,

Ross Cameron (33:15.335)
yeah.

John Will (33:26.83)
then you're going to be a different person every one of us in every two years or you know put some magic. So go back and look again, look again, look again and then what will happen is you'll go wow I'm seeing things I never saw before and that's exciting, highly motivating and allows you to be a point of difference from every other coach because a lot of coaches are not you know you've seen your share of a traditional martial arts

which is almost like, you know, it's about preserving what it was rather than let's look at it anew. So I treat it like a technology rather than a posting stamp, you know.

Ross Cameron (34:10.161)
I love watching the kids because the kids have no preconceived ideas and they'll do something and I'll go, you can do that from there. that's interesting. Let's go down that rabbit hole then.

John Will (34:18.286)
Yeah.

John Will (34:22.988)
Yeah. Yes, so I like that. Again, that's why I love teaching because I, you know, imagine. So I've taught things this week that, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've taught them before, but every time I teach it, I'm looking at it as if I'm looking at it for the first time. And my brain is a different brain than what it was last year. So I'm actually seeing.

Ross Cameron (34:49.691)
So the details are different and the depth of understanding is different and the explanation of that. Yeah.

John Will (34:53.454)
Yeah. So that's what I would tell coaches because my coach told me that. The day I got my black belt, he and Machado said to me, see you Monday morning, we're starting over. And I thought he was just saying one of those things that people say. And I turned up Monday morning and we did upa from the mouth. And I learned three or four details I'd never seen before and I've been trying 10 years. I go, what?

Ross Cameron (35:10.64)
Yep.

John Will (35:21.742)
Why didn't you show me that before? And he goes, I won, I probably did, but your brain wasn't up for it to you weren't ready for it. Three, you know, and so and so what he said to me was he said, make a list. Just make a list of 200 techniques. And put them in an order like you're you'll do that because you're that way in client sweeps and armbar, whatever, darsis, anacondas, arm triangles. And what we'll do

is over the next four or five years, we just go through every single one of those things with your new brain and see what we can come up with. my goodness. That was the best ever.

Ross Cameron (36:05.807)
Yep. Yeah, there's the saying, you know, when the student is ready, the mask will appear. It's that you have to be at that understanding to see what you see. Yeah, it makes a big difference.

John Will (36:18.52)
Well, there's that, how does that old story go? You know, the kid, the kid leaves his family and goes traveling the world for 10 years. And when he comes back, he can't believe how smart his dad got while he was away. mean, the dad was always the same, to be clear, but the kid now realizes that he knows more. Cause he's grown up.

Ross Cameron (36:30.353)
Yep, I've got a teenage boy.

Ross Cameron (36:45.393)
So what was your most memorable time rolling?

Ross Cameron (36:53.553)
time in Brazil, time in LA.

John Will (36:59.496)
Le Bleu. I guess LA, I guess. Hagen. Hagen and Jacques Machado. Hagen Machado.

Ross Cameron (37:09.841)
Is that because LA was such a melting pot at the time?

John Will (37:13.036)
Well, no, there was no one trying. mean, you know, there was only, you know, those guys that were training there as a very small group of 20, 30 people. That was the community. So that was very memorable because, you know, we were it. So they were just memorable days. Great days, days of quality.

Ross Cameron (37:26.139)
Mm-hmm.

Ross Cameron (37:36.709)
Yeah. And that connection that you've made with those guys, it's a lifetime of a connection.

John Will (37:42.114)
Yeah, some of them. mean, one of them, David Myers, one guy, he's coming out here in a couple of weeks time. We make sure we get together every year for a week or whatever. You know, whether I'm in Europe, he just called me last week and he said, where do want me to come? You go to Europe, I'll meet you there. I said, well, come to my house, there's a mat. So, there's no mats in Europe. there is mats, but you know what I mean. So, no.

Ross Cameron (37:52.752)
Mm-hmm.

Ross Cameron (38:03.728)
Hahaha.

John Will (38:11.246)
Yeah, keep in touch. And that they were pretty special times because there were so many things that happened then, you know, with guys coming in and fighting and breaking these arms and breaking that leg and choking those four guys out eight times in a row. And, know, all this got us. We shared all that weird time. And, you know, we all had no money and no one had any money. So we were all just trying to struggle and find our way through somehow with no plan.

No plan about how the future might unfold or anything, we're just living it. So that was pretty special times, those times. Though it's equally good now, you I don't want to be one of those martial artists that just talks about, see some of these guys on the internet and all they ever talk about was the 70s or, yeah, people like to talk about when they're at their peak. Right, that's the stories. I just don't like that. That's just not me.

Ross Cameron (39:05.681)
I get the young guys asking me about my fight career and I think, guys, I retired in 93. Some of you weren't even born. So why would you want to know about my fight career?

John Will (39:12.27)
The year of the internet. No, best, you know, every year is the best year. This is the best time now.

Ross Cameron (39:25.755)
So, and I know you're an avid reader, because we can see it in behind you, but I know you're an avid reader and an author. And what is your favorite martial arts book?

John Will (39:37.804)
Well, there's a few different things, books, but they have different meanings for me. Probably my... Can I walk over there?

John Will (39:58.382)
Let's see.

John Will (40:12.342)
Okay, so I mean, you know, there's different books give you different things that these are old books, but I guess this is a book that's a very old book and it's got these beautiful little line drawings, you know, book on judo. And I just love that. I like, you know, that better than photos. Hubert Klinger Klingerstorf. I mean, this is very old school. There might be some guys like you and me.

Ross Cameron (40:33.029)
got one that's very similar.

John Will (40:41.07)
probably recognize this book. That was my dad's book and I that was in his library when I was a young kid. He had he had books on psychology and strategy and judo and stuff. I was like a weird father I had. So, you know, that's that I was I read that when I was ten or eleven and then used the techniques. I remember doing a Tomoe Nage you know, in a fight when I was about eleven and it saved my bacon. The guy went flying down a culvert, broke his arm. It was awesome.

Ross Cameron (41:10.385)
Ha

John Will (41:10.91)
I learned that out of that, not off a coach. that's, you know, that is it. It's not a, you know, no one would think much of it now, but to me it's valuable. And the other book I like a lot is Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago. And that's really great book because it's, you know, it's all underlined in notes and this and that. But that was written by Don Drager, who

Ross Cameron (41:36.847)
huh.

John Will (41:39.34)
who was the one who first inspired me to get over and travel and go to all these different villages and towns in Southeast Asia and train in the little styles there. So those two books were very inspirational. So, you know, there are other great books, know, Robert Drysdale's, opening the closed guard. I mean, if you want history and you know, there's there are they're all just different. It's like saying, what's your favorite movie, you know?

Ross Cameron (42:02.641)
Yep.

Yeah.

John Will (42:07.118)
I mean, tonight we're watching Ben Hur, I the 1959 version of it. But at the same time, I'd love Dune or Blade Runner. So they're just different, very hard to pin down.

Ross Cameron (42:20.101)
Yeah. And you find that...

Do you still hunt for books?

John Will (42:27.756)
No, I don't. Yeah. I bought two this week, got a giant pile of 15 books I got to read. She's looking at me like I'm an idiot now, which might be correct. Because I buy more books than I read. I need to get on a plane and go to Europe so I can read them there and leave them on the plane. But I bought a few books in these last few weeks. But you know, book.

Ross Cameron (42:28.677)
Yeah, I still go to the second hand.

Ross Cameron (42:42.715)
Hahaha

Ross Cameron (42:48.133)
Yep.

John Will (42:57.162)
Economics by Thomas Sall, Thomas Sall, fantastic economist in his 90s, writes amazing stuff. I bought another one by Robin Hanson, who's a polymath, talks about all kinds of stuff. So I just like different kinds of books. And then I draw

Ross Cameron (43:17.801)
Like you say, the sparks your interest and then you want to learn more and then you want to learn more and then you want to learn more.

John Will (43:24.663)
Yeah.

I like watching debates. I like watching debates because I get both sides, right? I shy away from talks and YouTube stuff about opinions that I already have. I want to find the other side of that and hope someone can change my mind, right? And then I do it by, and debates are great because you get the point, and I take notes as I'm watching it. So it takes me two and a half hours to watch a one hour debate.

Ross Cameron (43:32.272)
Mm-hmm.

John Will (43:55.31)
So I'm taking notes, but I get both sides and then I form an opinion at the bottom of that. And then I try to plug that into training or somehow what's interesting, is there a connection? So that's one thing I like to watch. And you know, there's so much long, long, what's it called now? Long format, long form, you know, these four hour conversations. I'm up for that. I've got the time and I love in-depth conversations.

So I do that now if I find someone, I like one of those and it really piques my interest, I then invariably go and buy the book. Because I felt, I got so much out of that at no cost. The least I can do is buy the guy's book. That way I can give him something because it was worth $25.

Ross Cameron (44:32.145)
Ha

Ross Cameron (44:39.631)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah, you pay forward.

Ross Cameron (44:50.385)
Ha.

Who's your most memorable person in martial arts?

John Will (44:59.438)
So my wife just went like that. You know, I mean, that's probably fair. I mean, people would think that's silly, but yeah, probably her. I she's certainly the most influential person in my life. Right. mean, my, you know, my wife's added so much to my life that much more influential than any

Ross Cameron (45:06.054)
You did meet her through martial arts and marry her.

Hahaha

John Will (45:29.71)
single martial arts guy that I have met. So there's that. But I guess no one wants to hear about that. in terms of the other stuff, it's really difficult because again, Ross like movies, each one brings something different. And each person, Gogen Yamaguchi is a great character.

And there was something about him that was very, very interesting, but I can't say that he influenced me in that way or that way or that way. It was just like, wow, cool. You know, then someone else might have been, you know, might just be about their BJJ, the rest of their life's in shambles, but the Jiu-Jitsu was really good. So I kind of got.

My dad told me when I was young, he says, one, you never want to meet your heroes. You don't want to pull the curtain back. You're going to be disappointed. So what you've got to do is make an amalgam inside your head of different aspects. You want Nadia Comaneci, the gymnast's precision. You want this person's creative thinking. want this person's, you know, so, and it's this, this, this kind of archetypal,

amalgamation of all these different things as opposed to one person. think in terms of martial arts influence for me it's like that. It's a lot of different people but each gave me something different.

Ross Cameron (47:06.789)
Yep. I'd say that I'm a result of the people that I've met along the way and my own mistakes.

John Will (47:15.606)
Yeah. Yeah. And some of those people, it's a cautionary tale rather than a...

Ross Cameron (47:21.711)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's some people that you're quite happy to meet on the street again and some people you would cross the road.

John Will (47:28.48)
Yikes. I think that there's this thing, it's one of the things that I got a little bit sick of when I was running Blitz Magazine. You get these martial arts people everywhere just patting each other on the back and giving each other certificates and then, and I just knew I didn't want to be a part of that. And you get...

the pamphlet, what I call the martial arts pamphlet, you know, on the pamphlet, it's got integrity, it's always the same integrity, character, honor, but then you look at them and anything but that. So I, a lot of that just drove me to be my own man and go down my own path and do my own thing. Yeah. I mean, I don't want come across as negative, but the martial arts landscape does attract its share of narcissists and nutjobs.

Ross Cameron (48:23.773)
absolutely. Sometimes I talk to my partner and say to her that martial arts can be like worse than the high school gossip and worse than the high school. It's just shocking.

John Will (48:24.973)
That's it.

John Will (48:38.156)
Well, yeah, let's not end on that though. There's some wonderful people, but it's easy to see that. And also I've traveled around and touched a lot of people all over Australia and all over the world, so probably more than normal. So I've also seen more than I really prefer to see.

Ross Cameron (48:41.071)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ross Cameron (49:00.92)
And there's always the gold. There's always those people that are just, they go out of their way. They're just amazing human beings. And to me, that's what martial arts is about. It's about being a better human being and helping people be better human beings. And I say a few bit at a time that I'm the bus driver. My students get on, I drive the bus. They might hop off, they might hop back on again. So long as I've helped them on their journey, I'm good.

John Will (49:27.02)
Yeah, that's nice. Nice. Yeah, there are this it's interesting characters that and I mean, you know, we I think to not you know, work on yourself, get your own life really in order. So your your life is outstandingly good.

And then to not be able to assist other people to, you know, move in that direction would be a failed learning, a missed learning opportunity. Sorry, a missed teaching opportunity, right? Because we had this captive audience that we've shared blood and sweat with. It's unique. And a cross section of community that is unique.

You know, you're getting a labourer there and an esthetist there and an engineer there, all there. I mean, that's unique. Right. And then to not then take the moment to show them how they can do these other things is kind of a missed opportunity. Your picture dropped off, there's the sound still there. no problem. El Gato, the living of it and living it well.

Ross Cameron (50:26.504)
very unique.

Ross Cameron (50:40.527)
Yep, hang on, I'll just fix that, John, hang on.

John Will (50:50.098)
that's if because you you've got to be you've got to be able to demonstrate that you have done that then it seems sad to waste that when we have a captive audience that's looking for they want their life to unfold really well so it's i think it's almost incumbent upon instructors to get this together

Ross Cameron (51:03.92)
Yeah.

Ross Cameron (51:08.069)
Yeah, I'm under Grandmaster Yun, and he is a big, he's arrived in Australia with nothing and built a multimillion dollar sports complex and done all those things. And his aim is to have his students be better than him. And he teaches you financial advice and he gives you personal advice and he, because he wants you to be better than where you are.

Lift your station in life. Lift your way you walk, the way you talk, the way you move, the way you dress. Yeah.

John Will (51:45.486)
I fail on the dressing part. I think it's nice too that you mentioned that because that speaks to gratitude and we need that. It's one of the things that I guess I had less of that when I was younger. I think it's just a natural progression of getting older. You kind of realize that none of us can do anything.

Ross Cameron (51:47.921)
Ha

Ross Cameron (51:58.864)
Yeah.

John Will (52:14.178)
without the help of other people. And now it's our turn to do the same thing.

Ross Cameron (52:15.973)
No, exactly. yeah, and I was talking to Tino about this a couple of weeks ago is that if we don't share this knowledge, and I'm talking martial arts knowledge, if we don't share martial arts knowledge, it's gone. But if we don't share the collective knowledge, then it's gone and they have to relearn it. So we're better to share this knowledge and help our students grow. And hopefully over time, the community gets better.

John Will (52:44.694)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, thank you.

Ross Cameron (52:48.964)
Alright, well we might leave it there, John.

Thank you for your time and I'll get you back on another time.

John Will (52:54.35)
My pleasure.