Ep2 - Robert Drysdale - BJJ Evolution challenges an opportunities

In this conversation, Robert Drysdale shares his journey into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ), discussing the evolution of the sport, the challenges it faces, and his teaching philosophy. He emphasizes the importance of hard work, the value of the journey in martial arts, and the need for integrity in coaching. Drysdale also critiques the commercialization of BJJ and the impact of social media on the sport's authenticity. He reflects on the future of BJJ, the significance of teaching methods, and the legacy of influential figures like Carlson Gracie.

Takeaways
Robert Drysdale's early attraction to combat sports shaped his journey into BJJ.
BJJ's popularity surged in Brazil during the 1990s, influenced by the Gracie family.
The commercialization of BJJ has led to a dilution of standards and integrity.
Drysdale believes in maintaining high standards for students and not taking shortcuts.
The journey and hard work in martial arts are more valuable than quick success.
Teaching philosophy should focus on developing trust and honesty with students.
The importance of a strong work ethic in martial arts training cannot be overstated.
BJJ's future depends on maintaining its core values amidst commercialization.
Drysdale critiques the trend of prioritizing novelty over effective teaching methods.
Carlson Gracie is highlighted as a model of a true martial artist and coach.

Time stamps

00:00 The Journey into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
03:15 The Evolution and Popularity of BJJ
05:59 The Challenge of Maintaining Standards in BJJ
08:56 The Importance of the Journey in Martial Arts
11:45 The Future of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
14:45 Understanding the History of BJJ
17:29 Coaching Confidence in Athletes
23:48 The Burden of Business in Martial Arts
27:28 The Challenge of Coaching and Student Expectations
31:02 Rethinking Mastery and Learning in Jiu Jitsu
37:39 The Illusion of Innovation in Martial Arts
42:08 The Legacy of Carlson Gracie
44:32 Its Not About The Fight  outro 

#bjj   #combatsport  #sports  #martialarts  #teaching  #philosophy #studentdevelopment  #evolutionofBJJ  #trainingmethods , #coaching  #martialartshistory

Transcript

Ross Cameron (00:02.647)
So we're lucky today to have Robert Drysdale in from Vegas and Demetrius Pelouros here from Brisbane. And we're gonna talk to Robert about all things around BJJ and combat sports. So Rob, good to have you on.

Drysdale (00:23.362)
Thanks for having me, Ross. Nice to see you guys, Dimitri, everyone back in, everyone listening or everyone back in Brisbane. And yeah, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

Ross Cameron (00:27.309)
Great to see you again.

Ross Cameron (00:34.519)
So Rob, what first got you into BJJ?

Drysdale (00:41.838)
I don't know. I think some things are just born within us. I don't think BJJ per se, but I always had. I was always attracted to combat and the soldier life. When I was a kid, everything was Rambo or He-Man or G.I. Joe. I wasn't interested in kites. I had to play soccer because I grew up in Brazil. If you don't play soccer, you don't have friends basically. But it was more...

Ross Cameron (01:07.827)
Hahaha.

Drysdale (01:08.43)
It was not something I was like... I mean, initially I wasn't that interested. Later I fell in love with the game. But initially, I never liked cars and other games that kids play. Everything had to do with fighting and the warrior life. So I think that was always in me. It was not something I thought I'd be doing for a living. It was just something I was drawn to. And when Jiu Jitsu started to become popular in Brazil in the mid-90s...

I was maturing around that time. I was a teenager around that time. So I think that the identity that Jiu Jitsu promised was an identity that blended well with that warrior spirit I always felt I had inside me. It was like hand in glove kind of deal. When I saw Jiu Jitsu, I like, I don't even know what the hell they're doing, but that's what I'm going to do. It was very quick. It was love at first sight.

Ross Cameron (01:57.325)
Was jujitsu readily available for you at that time though? It had peaked enough for clubs to be readily available for you to learn.

Drysdale (02:07.582)
Not really. People don't know this, but Jiu Jitsu was not popular in Brazil prior to Hoist Gracie. Very few people, even in Rio de Janeiro, even knew what Jiu Jitsu was. It was not common. My hometown of Ito, where I grew up, there was one BJJ school, and that's where I started training in 98. Actually, I did, I had an experience with a style called Morganchi Jiu Jitsu, which is like a blend of Kyokushin karate and Judo.

And I had like six month experience with them and then they went out of business and I thought it was a hoist, hoist graces jujitsu. didn't know the difference. I was there for like six months and they went out of business. And then I went to a school, what we would call today, Brazilian jujitsu. And yeah, I fell in love with it. was, it was the only gym in town at the time. And then, I mean, even when I was a white belt, they opened a second gym, purple belt was teaching. And now if you go back, there's probably 30 gyms. I mean, every

city little small town in Brazil has 20 gyms and it's the same it's the same over here in the US now like every every street corner there's a BJJ gym it's sort of like like a mania really and it's good and bad you know good and bad things but it's definitely I was able to witness that growth very very closely in the US and Brazil.

Ross Cameron (03:22.657)
Yeah, I remember back in the 80s in America, there was copper on every corner, just about half of the karate kid came along. So the growth happens very quickly. Then unfortunately you start to see the other end of the scale where it starts to drop. So do you believe BJJ's peaked or do you believe BJJ's still in this growth phase?

Drysdale (03:43.726)
Well, it depends what you mean by peak. I think there's two conflicting forces here, the democratization, popularization, commercialization, demographic growth on one side. And then there are the values, the Spartan life, the hardcore aspects of how much harder it was to get a black belt before, or all these other things.

that I think they started to, they were very common, they were common practice in the 70s and 80s and up to early 90s in Brazil. And they started dying once people started seeing that there's a, yeah, you can make money from Jiu And that's when the corruption kind of begins. It goes hand in hand with the process of popularization. I don't think there's a remedy. Every martial art goes through this. The more popular you are, the more corruption you're gonna undergo. Because even if some individuals in the martial art are not corrupt,

Some will be you know, the majority will be most people will corrupt themselves for money and popularity and whatever And it's changed a lot man things

Ross Cameron (04:44.621)
have you found the antithesis of that corruption or the lessening of the professionalism of instructors with associations and people like yourselves where you've created zenith and you've gotten a standard of teaching and of a style, do you think that has counteracted that corruptive movement?

Drysdale (05:12.654)
I don't think it's look I think the closest thing to it to have like some kind of because it's there's their pulling forces right there that war with each other the more you grow in popularity the weaker the other end is gonna be and I think we're definitely like losing that battle towards watering down the standards a little bit it's very hard to keep them high because the truth is most people don't want high standards people want a black belt but they don't want to work hard for it like people want things handed to them it's easier that way

They want Mount Everest, but they want a helicopter ride to the top and say it's the same view. It's the same view. What's the difference? I'm popular. I'm rich. Why go through the, why do it the hard way? You know, the easy way is the same result. Am I, is it the same, is it the same view? Someone who climbed on the strength of their own legs versus someone that took a helicopter ride to the top. I don't think it's the same.

Ross Cameron (05:44.033)
Hahaha

Ross Cameron (06:00.599)
So do you find athletes tend to, athletes, modern athletes and modern Jiu-Jitsu guys are looking for the easy route or do you think that that...

Drysdale (06:13.166)
Oh yeah, yeah. Athletes, I'll give you an example. Like half the problems I've had with my students over the years comes down to that. They wanna be rich and famous and it drives them crazy that I'm not helping them. It drives them insane. And I'm like, oh, you won Mount Everest, I've done it, I've helped other people do it, I know the route, I'll help you. But I'm not gonna give you a helicopter ride to the top first, because I don't know how to do that. Second, if I did, I wouldn't anyway, out of principle. I'm not gonna do that, because I respect you too much.

because I respect you too much and I believe in you too much for you to go the easy route. I believe you can do the hard route, which is the right route. You know, like people that easy, it's not the same result guys. You achieving excellence, right, through a sport and then maybe some money and notoriety as a side effect. It's not the same as you pursuing money and notoriety without having to climb the mountain the way you're supposed to.

You know, and I think that my position is I respect my students too much and I believe in them too much to allow them to go the easy route. So I butt heads with them. know I'm not doing that. You want to go the right way, the way that you're supposed to. I'll be here every step along the way with you. But if you just want to start networking and politics and spending your day on Instagram, kissing ass, all these fake friendships, I'm not part of that, man. I'm not into politics. Jujutsu teaches truth, teaches reality.

It doesn't teach flattery, doesn't teach politics. It's not what it's about. One of the reasons I fell in love with Jiu Jitsu was that it was so real, it was so pure, it was so empirical. There was no politics. You want to be the man? You got to beat the man. Oh, you want to be the man? You got to beat Buchecha. 13 world titles, go break that record. That's the standard. You understand? That's the beauty of Jiu Jitsu. And if you fall somewhere within that hierarchy, that's perfectly fine.

But you fell within a hierarchy because you did the best you could and you followed the rules. You followed the system, you followed the code, the ethics of combat. You understand? What this generation has done is they've completely, there's no more hierarchy. I'm just gonna get to the top by talking my way to the top. people applaud it and they reward it. And I'm against it, personally.

Ross Cameron (08:08.13)
home.

Ross Cameron (08:13.121)
Yeah, I think.

Ross Cameron (08:23.029)
Yeah, in martial arts, think that the journey is the reward. So if you're trying to bypass the journey, you're missing the gold.

Drysdale (08:31.724)
Yeah, I always say it's the hard work is the reward. I say this all the time That's what people are missing the mountain view if you climb in through the struggles and the strength of your own legs It's not the same as if you're trying to network your way to the top. It's not the same view I don't believe that you know, I know this there's a difference between a guy that built his wealth Let's say you're obsessed with money. You've built your wealth on the strength of your own back Versus you win the lottery or you're inherit that wealth. Is it the same person are they equals?

They're not equals. We know they're not equals. No. But why is it that we're trying to, why is it that we're putting this highlighting that the shortcuts, because it comes down to this. want, they want the rewards, but they don't want the work that comes with it, right? Like they're falling short of the work ethic. And I think this is the biggest problem to do. It's because it's gonna water down the quality of the product. And what was extremely valuable will now become extremely invaluable because, or not valuable, I should say, because,

What's gonna happen is people are gonna find value somewhere else. They're gonna go because once it loses that boutique-ness of it, like you're no longer member of the 300s, you're just not part of that group, it's everyone gets a black belt or everyone is a fucking champion or everyone is a fucking superstar. Or why would you, it's gonna lose its, look, if everyone has everything they want, no one has to fight for anything, it gets handed easier and easier and easier. There's no value in that object, you understand? And people are gonna look for it somewhere else.

And that's where I think is gonna happen to Jutsu eventually, unless there's some changes in the community. It's kinda happening already. I sometimes, I see things done and said and just the way it's going. I'm no expert in the history of martial arts, but I know enough to know that it's happened before, but what has happened before is likely to happen again. These things tend to be very cyclical and it's unfortunate. But I just don't see a way around it unless there's some radical changes.

Ross Cameron (10:25.975)
Yeah, I've been around martial arts since I was four and I've seen judo go through it. I've seen karate go through it. I've seen taekwondo go through it. They get really popular. And of course, when they become popular, we get people get going to business and then some of the people that business sell belts to make money rather than actually selling the tuition or qualification of it. Yeah. And it just tends to water things down. But and then it has another resurgence because people go, Hey, that was wrong.

You're still going to get those guys that are going to do that anyhow. But the good guys keep doing the good things and people know the difference.

Drysdale (11:03.234)
Yeah. I, that's kind of what I'm hoping for Ross is like, you know, I know I'm not alone in the community. I know a lot of people think like us and they go, you know, like this is a, the purpose of martial arts is not popularity. It's not Instagram followers. It's not money. It's not entertainment. Like all these things that people are obsessed and over there, there's a different value to this. And I hope we don't miss out on it because you know, if we don't come around and go, Hey, hold up here, man. Like this is education.

That's what the purpose of the martial art is. If it's not improving on the individual, it's not doing its job. That's just my philosophy. And I think, know, Judo for all its faults, and I think Judo has some technical faults. You can even question some aspects of its philosophy. But in general, I think what Judo managed to achieve is that I think it came closest to setting a structure of martial art to prevent corruption and keep it true to a purpose. And I think it's a reason why it never stopped growing. It's so cohesive.

And even in the face of all the challenges like BJJ, it's a huge pose, it's an enormous challenge to Judo. I don't think they're going anywhere, man. I think they're gonna lose some ground, I they're gonna continue to lose ground to Jiu Jitsu over the next 50 years. But I don't think they're gonna disappear. When it comes to BJJ, it's less certain to me. And I have my differences with the IBJJF, of course, but I only see hope through them. It's the only place I see any longevity and hope in BJJ. There's some things that I just, I mean...

Everyone's gonna have their own idea of what a martial art should look like. Sure, but in general I support them because I look at them and I go, okay, this is an organization where I can see Jiu-Jitsu having a hope of never going anywhere. At least there's a certain view of what Jiu-Jitsu is, a certain interpretation. There's a hierarchy, there are some rules there, and I can see them being around 50 years down the road. I have a hard time seeing other organizations or beliefs or groups of people.

like variants of BJJ around fair 50. I just have a hard time seeing that because I still think they have the right values or the right ideas or the why in place, right? Like why are you doing this? What's the purpose of what you do? And I think a lot of people miss these things because they're living in the moment. They're very like immediate reward. Make me money right now. And if it's not bringing money right now, that it has no importance. And I think we have to have a little more social responsibility in regards to these things and things long term.

Drysdale (13:24.972)
I think thinking long term is what's missing in the community.

Ross Cameron (13:30.093)
Yeah, I see. I've seen people don't understand to that the International Judo Federation, there's other judo federations out there. But the International Judo Federation is the one that's the one in the Olympics. And that's the one that has the structure. And that's the one that's been around the longest. And you get guys that compete in sport judo and all sorts of other bits and pieces. But the ones that it's at the Olympics. That's the International Judo Federation.

Drysdale (13:39.682)
Yeah.

Ross Cameron (14:00.075)
I think the IBJJF will end up being that same sort of body for BJJ, where it's the gold standard. The governing body of it. Well, not even the governing body, the gold standard. This is what the rules are. is how it goes. So I...

Drysdale (14:12.514)
Yeah. It kind of is that already. If you look at, example, ADCC is the closest thing to competition BJJ has in terms of popularity, at least. I think the AGP, that Arab organization, they're doing really big things too in the Arab world and elsewhere. But I think when it comes to popularity, ADCC, or even like all these rule sets really, they all come down to the IBJJF rule set. They're just for their variance of it, which is in essence,

The 1975 rule set, which is like super interesting because it's the rules that they came to define BJJ really. That was what BJJ was created if you really get down to what we're doing. But 1975 rule set is the rule set that most people practice just with variations. Advantages, no advantages like Nagana's two points for submission attempts to seven advantage if it's no gi, hook, no heel hook, some variations. like I've objecting today is the leading, it's the

It is the leading body. People may or may not recognize that. They don't claim that for themselves. I was just having a conversation with one of the representatives who I interviewed for my new book. And he said, look, we never saw ourselves that way. We don't care to be seen that way. It's not what we're trying to do. We're going to do ours. This is what we believe in. This is we're going to do. if people want to follow our rules, they can follow our rules. But we don't have to worry about what other people are doing. We're just doing what we do.

And I really think that's the right approach. They're not advocating or pretending to be the leadership. They're not acting like they are. They're just doing good work. And I think people will follow good work. You know, that's the tendency. People are going to go, if you have the best, most organized gym in town, you don't have to brag about it being the best, most organized gym in town. People are going to gravitate towards it.

Ross Cameron (15:43.895)
Yep.

Ross Cameron (15:53.899)
No, Yeah, it's why people buy Rolls Royce, isn't it? It's the best made car in the world. yeah, the gold standard. So in your book, Opening Close Guard, you talk about the history and depth you go into the history of BJJ. What are some of the misconceptions that you believe there are around the history of BJJ?

Drysdale (16:00.654)
Yeah.

Drysdale (16:19.65)
I think that it's interesting because you can question aspects of the story, but there's still some frameworks in there that are very hard to remove. You can start asking questions like, what is a martial art? And that's where I end up. How can I even define what is Judo? What is Jujitsu? What is Brazilian Jujitsu? We have to first define the terms. What is it that a martial art changes? When does Kitorio stop being Kitorio because, quote, of Kanjudo?

When is it that Kodokan Judo becomes Gracie Jiu-Jitsu? When does Gracie Jiu-Jitsu become Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? When does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu turn into Nogi or American Jiu-Jitsu? when, what is it that is separating these things? What is it that we consider, we can consider these differences to be, and when they're radical enough to justify it, that it's a new martial art or least something different, right? You know, I think some...

Some things about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are still very much Judo, like the belt ranking system, the uniforms obviously, the mat area, it's all Judo. A lot of the little ways of Judo thinking and ceremony and etiquette made its way into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it survived. It went through a radical change in Brazil, for sure. It's got a very Brazilian face to it. I argue in both books really that one of the reasons why BJJ became so popular

It's the beach culture of Rio de Janeiro that made its way into a martial art in the way that I've never seen it happen before. Before they were still very Japanese in demeanor. know, Brazil, Jiu Jitsu is not Japanese like that. It's changed radically in Brazil. It's the flip-flops, the acai, the hang loose, the showing up five minutes late, you know. It's a very relaxed, kind of beach-like environment. It's very, very Brazilian.

Ross Cameron (17:50.797)
Hmm.

Ross Cameron (18:07.778)
Hmm.

Drysdale (18:07.854)
And that's something not people recognize, but that was a huge part of the growth. Jiu-Jitsu underwent many changes in Brazil and the Gracie family obviously is central to this. Although it wouldn't be fair to say that they did it alone. Or even when you say something like the Gracie family, it's such a meaningless term when you think about it. There's like 500 of them, like more.

Are you telling me that all of them played a good role and all of them helped like no some of them did nothing some of them actually worked against it some of them did more harm than good and Then some of them changed it radically some of them were instrumental in having what we have today go school case by case individual by individual Instead of lumping them all in one group like oh, I am the member of the Gracie family. I know you did nothing like you did nothing There are plenty of people who are members of the family way more than you last name does not give you automatic credit You know, I think a lot of people miss that

But it's some very radical shifts away from Judo. And to me at least, I think that warrant calling PJJ a new martial art, not just the rules, but in terms of cultural terms especially. It's a very, very radical change. Although the methodological change in terms, there's only so many ways you can do this. There are some similarities between Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo, but in technical terms, it's drifted a lot. In cultural terms, even more so. I think the biggest change has been in cultural terms.

The lifestyle that BJJ offers that think perhaps Judo lacks. That's what I hear from a lot of judokas that make the move to BJJ and why. The longevity of BJJ is the other one. There's a lot less impact. It will be easier on the body than wrestling and Judo. So you can roll at 50. It's hard to get thrown on when you're 50. You don't wanna get thrown and get back up to your feet. That sucks. But.

Ross Cameron (19:49.355)
Yeah.

Ross Cameron (19:57.675)
It is a there's a there's a little group here in Brisbane that called dojo dinosaurs and it's all the old judo guys that go out and they they roll. They roll they don't they do new as they don't actually do too much of the throwing anymore. Because we just can't handle it.

Drysdale (20:06.733)
Yeah.

Drysdale (20:11.054)
Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. And that's the IBGF strategy for growth. They believe that the demographic is 50-60. Like not many martial arts, can do this in your 50s and 60s. Like Carlos Gracie Jr. four times a week, according to himself. And he's 67. And he was doing this since he was two. You know, that's 65 years on the mat. I mean, I think he's older than 67 now. So just think about that. That's remarkable.

Ross Cameron (20:31.573)
Yeah,

Ross Cameron (20:38.571)
Drysdale (20:38.638)
And I think that is a huge plus of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Their goal is to broaden their horizon and their demographic and make it a wider and wider audience. Like we were talking about, that comes with pros and cons, but you can't have everything you want. I have my view of things. In that regard, I'm old school. I welcome innovation and new techniques, but in terms of values, I think we've gone backwards, unfortunately.

Ross Cameron (21:05.985)
Hmm. So when you're, when you're coaching and you're dealing with athletes, how do you deal with an athlete that doesn't have enough confidence? And how do you deal with an athlete that's overconfident?

Drysdale (21:19.982)
That's a very good question. Because I deal with both. think underconfidence is a bigger problem. But you get the other way around too. know, underconfidence is one of the things that, if they are just underconfident but they have the heart and the willingness to change, and they show up, I can help them. But if someone that doesn't have the confidence doesn't show up and doesn't show me any willingness to change, I can't do anything about it. I can't perform that miracle. But if I see them showing up and I see that they care, they're bringing their heart to practice,

Ross Cameron (21:25.133)
No

Ross Cameron (21:42.509)
Mm.

Drysdale (21:49.582)
I know how to get in their heads and change the way they think. I do this well, I've done it my whole life. know how to like, it's just the first thing you gotta do is gain their trust. And if we didn't trust you, can't bullshit them. Like when my daughters were five years old, I told them that Santa wasn't real. My mom was pissed at me. My mom was losing her mind. And I told them that, yeah. So I told them the tooth fairy wasn't real. And then it was like the dollar in the middle of your pillow, that was me.

Ross Cameron (22:08.589)
He's not?

Drysdale (22:19.512)
And they weren't mad. My daughter was like, really? Okay, it's still a dollar. So they still like Christmas because they get presents. But I told them Santa wasn't real and they were fine. And I did that because I wanted to gain their trust. I wanted them to understand that daddy doesn't lie to you. So when I tell them something, you better believe it because I don't bullshit. I'm never gonna bullshit. I love you too much to bullshit you. Even if something is trivial with Santa Claus. So I'm not gonna trivial and important. I'm not gonna lie to you on other important things. And I have the same kind of relationship with my students.

Like I had this kid come in and he was very insecure. Very like, like his first competition, there was no one in his division and he lost to a girl 30 pounds lighter than him by submission. That's where he was. Okay. And I told him, yeah, you're not good at jujitsu bro. You do, you got a lot of it. I, and like most people would have quit. Kid was almost crying. Like I knew I heard him when I said that, but he's something he needed to hear for me to develop the kind of trust and relationship that I want to develop with him. You got to hear the truth.

And the truth is sometimes hurtful. told him the truth. Kid didn't quit. This truth will set you free. So it hurt him, but he had the heart to keep showing. I told him, if you show up, I can change that about you. Just keep showing up. Bro, the kid wins tournaments now. He went from being the most, like, one of the worst athletes, jujitsu athletes I've ever seen in my life. Like, this kid is never gonna go anywhere. He was, like, hopeless. He actually won. He won a Naga the other day. couldn't, blue belt. I couldn't even believe it.

Ross Cameron (23:20.759)
Truth will set you free, right?

Drysdale (23:43.82)
Like, and, and, but I, now when I compliment him, he looks me in the eyes and he goes like this, he believes me, man. Because I went through that painful process of developing trust, I'm not gonna lie to you. The day you suck, I'm gonna say so. Right now, you're doing great. You're doing phenomenal, So when I say it now, I raise his confidence through the roof.

Ross Cameron (24:03.213)
So a student has to turn up with persistence and perseverance, right?

Drysdale (24:07.838)
I cannot help them unless they have that. I've reached this conclusion, if a student doesn't have that, I am wasted as a coach. I could be the best or the worst, it's gonna make no difference. But if you show me that you have heart, and then you want it, and then you care, and then it means something to you, I, please stop by my gym. I want you, I wanna meet you. You're the kind of student I look for. But it's just the truth is most people don't have it. It's all talk. And I don't mind a hobbyist for the record, I love a hobbyist.

Nothing

standards that I don't apply to myself, you know, so the crowd that the promise over promises that other delivers bothers me I like the people that stand by their word or the hobbyist those two crowds I love

Ross Cameron (25:15.723)
Robert takes a special somebody. There are a lot of fighters out there, but you know, you've competed before and Rob, we definitely know your history of competition. takes a special somebody then to become a teacher and to become a coach and then to become even an entrepreneur and start your own gym and run it. Not everyone can do that.

Drysdale (25:40.27)
I hate business, man. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I mean, I always say I'm a martial artist who happens to own a business. I am cornered into a position in this world where I have to pay mortgage and I have bills to pay. I have to run a business, but I don't like it. I'm not good at it. I never cared for it, to be honest. My heart's not in it. Most people from my generation that achieved what I achieved, they're millionaires today. I'm not even close to that because it's never been a top priority to me.

I'm not saying it's not important or that we shouldn't pursue it. I'm not making even, I'm just saying that to me it's just, it's not something I'm interested So I have to do it, but it's not where my heart is. I love to teach, I love to coach. I am a martial artist at heart. I think so. I have a knack for, yeah.

Ross Cameron (26:26.167)
Yeah, I think there's a different reward. As a martial arts coach, or as a martial artist, the reward is different. you're not just, you're not there for the monetary reward. It's nice. It's a byproduct. But the reward is watching somebody walk in the gym that's got no skills. And then two years, three years, five years down the track, that guy's an absolutely completely different person to

Drysdale (26:53.358)
You know, the thing is though is I think that the reward you're talking about takes a borderline like Nirvana, like enlightenment to be able to appreciate because you have to, you're not going to get that. You're not going to get the, the acknowledgement is internal. You know, you did something. Most people will not appreciate it. I have a legion of students that lived in my house. I fed and trained and paid for their tournaments and

gave my heart and soul to them. They never said thank you. And that's the majority of people, man. So I know I helped them, but for me to find internal satisfaction with so much ingratitude is, I'm not there yet, man. I'm working on it so I can just look back and go, I did the right thing. I helped them. They're living in the United States because of me. I changed their lives for the better. I never charged a dime. I did it all for free and from the heart, even that they don't acknowledge it and talk shit behind my back.

They accuse me of being greedy because I make more than them even though I never charge them or their families. It's fucking strange, man. I make more than you because I've done more than you. That's why. Not because I'm ripping you off. Not because I'm doing anything dishonest. But people are bothered by these things, right? So they turn on you. So I have to look internally and go and find satisfaction that I did the right thing and I helped them even though I got zero back. whether that is recognition, appreciation, or financials. I don't say goodbye to all that.

Ross Cameron (27:58.561)
Hmm.

Drysdale (28:21.762)
You're just giving. You're not taking, it's not an exchange. When you're a coach, you have to walk into this life knowing that you're giving. If you have that mindset, if you have that level of enlightenment, which I don't have yet, I'm working on, I'm hoping to achieve it one day, then I think that you can live, you can be a coach and be happy. But you have to walk in this knowing, not expecting anything really. Don't expect anything other than you're gonna be giving your whole

Ross Cameron (28:29.293)
Hmm.

Ross Cameron (28:53.869)
So what's one of the biggest mistakes that you see coaches making with athletes?

Drysdale (29:04.754)
I it's it's fall into commercial pressures and I get it where it's coming from like and the coaches fall into it too Sometimes they're not aware they're falling into they're just part of it They don't even know it like the student it's kind of like on your iPhone They go on their phone and they want something you know what the shorts are it's crazy right information went from you have to read a 800 page book to you read a 200 page book to you watch a two-hour movie to you watch a one-hour movie or to documentary to

You know, 20 minute YouTube video. Now we're down to like 20 seconds. If you can't get it out in five seconds, people are moving on, bro. They don't have the attention span. And Jiu Jitsu's a little bit like that. It's kind of like the Jiu Jitsu. It's like the Rolodex, you know? It's just like, me something new every 10 seconds, otherwise I'm bored. And I err on the side of, I want to teach. I want to help you. I'm going to give you what you need. So just today, we did the whole week, we did the same pass.

Ross Cameron (29:36.854)
Mm.

Ross Cameron (29:40.427)
Yeah, A shorter tension span.

Drysdale (30:00.396)
And I made them every do it like, and they can see them getting better. That's the crazy part about this conversation. You can actually see them improving. It's the boxing way. It's the wrestling ways, the judo way it works. And then BJJ, when I do that, I have all my higher ranking students rolling their eyes, sitting in the corner. I already know that coach. Why don't you give me new moves? And I'm like, cause you can't do any of them. That's why. Cause you suck at every single one of them. And if you were good,

Ross Cameron (30:03.607)
Mm.

Ross Cameron (30:22.285)
Ha

Drysdale (30:29.262)
Prove me wrong and go to the tournament and win with the armbar from closed guard that you tell me you know. you know that armbar from closed guard, do you? Okay, walk in the next tournament and pull it off. I can't do it up because you don't know it. All right, so just follow my lead and shut up and listen. But the thing is that the crowd, customer, I should say, wants to be rewarded. They want what they want. They want to be entertained above all. So they need something new every five seconds. And it's impossible to teach like that because at some point you're just satisfying curiosity.

Ross Cameron (30:44.749)
Hmm.

Drysdale (30:58.328)
You're not really teaching them Jiu Jitsu. You're just satisfying their curiosity over and over and over and then they walk away satisfied, but they're not learning Jiu Jitsu. I mean if that were learning Jiu Jitsu, you don't need me. Just go on YouTube. YouTube knows way more moves than I do. But that's nothing to do with coaching. And that's what these guys don't get. Like coaches don't get that because the culture in BJJ has developed in that way where we think that bombarding, they think that someone that's memorized a thousand moves is a good.

good coach or a good martial artist. I'm like, no, you can't do any of them. Who cares? And you can't teach them either because none of those moves you memorize, you can speak of with authority because you've never done it. You don't know the ins and outs, the angles and nuances. So what are you talking about? You're just repeating what someone said online and you're acting like you know the move. I'm sorry, but having a good memory does not make you a good martial artist.

Ross Cameron (31:45.229)
Yeah, it's the breadth or depth thing. I use the analogy that we all know how to ride a push bike, but Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France. But Lance Armstrong still won the Tour de France. It's how well do you know how to ride the bike? You can pass a guard, great. Which guard pass? How well do you know that guard pass? Could you teach it to a beginner? Could you teach it to an advanced person? How much knowledge do you have around that?

doing the work.

Drysdale (32:15.906)
You know, it's a problem of language, right? Like language is very problematic in these things. You say the word no. I either know or I don't know. So it's bipolar, right? It's one or the other. And it's not so simple because learning is not like that, is it? It's not I know or I don't know. What does that mean? Like it doesn't, like you start thinking about it, just you stick it to jujitsu. I don't know the move. Okay, that's, I don't know it at all. You don't know nothing about it. You just never seen an arm bar before. Well, you can never say that you know the move, really.

Because there's never a moment where you truly mastered it. There's no such thing, it doesn't exist. You can train for 200 years and not master the move. What does full mastery mean? It's a spectrum, but it's infinite one. It's like numbers, it goes up. There's no end to it. So yeah, you're always in pursuit of it, but you don't get there. So even the language we use to describe these things is so problematic because it doesn't do justice to the discussion. It's more common, we have to find how do we...

Ross Cameron (32:58.839)
your eyes in pursuit of it.

Drysdale (33:11.64)
how to reward these things to our students to try to put them in a different mindset because the word itself, I know or I don't know, they put us in the wrong frame of mind. I deal with these, for example, with my students, it's like how you use the language, it's important because they have concepts attached, they have meaning attached to those words, you understand? They have meaning attached to those words and they're gonna use that to...

to draw other meanings from the attachment of that word. So for example, when I say, I don't say old school anymore, I don't say fundamental, I don't say basic, I don't say beginner. When I'm teaching, I do statistically common moves. I have to word it that way. Because when I word it that way, when I word it that way, what happens is they see it under a very different light. Because if you say fundamental, they think it's a Nokia phone.

Ross Cameron (33:54.379)
Right.

Drysdale (34:07.218)
If you say beginner or old school, they think it's a Motorola, right? They don't, don't, no, no, I want the iPhone. I don't want the iPhone 10, I want the iPhone 15, you know, or whatever. And that's where we're at. That's what happens. They want the new stuff. So you can't say fundamental. You can't say, I say the statistically common ones, because now I reframed it completely different. I framed it in a way where I go.

Ross Cameron (34:16.813)
Hmm.

Drysdale (34:30.632)
this is what happens most consistently. So this is the one that the ones that work best. I'm like, yes, the ones that work best. They go, OK. I like that now. Because now it's not old. You're just completely reframing the conversation. So I think that one thing that could help martial artists and coaches in general is to just rethink what kind of words we use when we're teaching our students and talking to them in general. And I'm trying to do that right now. It's difficult because I end up using the same words I've always used. But I think this

Ross Cameron (34:37.527)
Hmm.

Drysdale (34:58.646)
clarifies a lot of confusion in martial arts in terms of, you know, methodology and learning and progress and mastery in general.

Ross Cameron (35:08.493)
And look, think Rob, that actually separates what you've just raised part of me is quite poignant because that's what separates the everyday teacher out there who has a club with career people who are always looking at the best way to teach their students.

Drysdale (35:25.986)
Yeah, 100 % because your job is to teach. Remember, you're a teacher. You're not a hustler. You're not a businessman. You're a teacher first and foremost. Your job is to teach. We make money as a side effect of that. So the purpose is to teach. But I think that too many people walk into this and they see a cash cow. And it's coming from the leadership too, man. It's not coming from the bottom. It's not coming from the bottom. That cuts the crap. It's not coming. The bottom are the purest. You're to find the purest at the bottom, if anything.

It's the corruption is coming from the top. Like it's coming from people that are setting the trends and Instagram influencers and the people who are have the biggest microphones in the community and just watch their behavior. It's corrupt through and through. It's about the money. It's about politics. It's flattery. Kiss the ass of the right people. That's how you're gonna make your way to the top. And it works because of people. Look, the internet just exposed something that was always there, The way to make yourself at the top is being a phony. Try to like

talk some truth in the community. People are gonna hate you. I pick fights with people all the time because I try to be that way. I'm not always that way, but I try to. I pick fights with everyone in the community. Basically, I isolated myself in some ways because people can't.

Ross Cameron (36:37.197)
Do you think people are getting a whole lot more savvy though? They're recognizing the fakes in the industry or the people who are.

Drysdale (36:42.21)
No, man. You know, I heard the other day, like a student, I don't know, man. Like I'm not gonna mention his name, but he was showing like shoulder pressure from side control. And instead of just saying shoulder pressure, he called it a cranial shift.

Drysdale (36:57.166)
cranial shift you're shifting his his his cranium you know he's great like it's like what are doing man like they're just using these retarded words and it doesn't even make sense but it's just it they're just trying desperately to act like they know something they don't like this new like ecological training we're talking about I'm like you giving them a purpose in a direction of the match I'm like as opposed to

What was the other method doing? Because I'm curious, you're acting like you're reinventing the wheel. People have to always reinvent something old to act like they're doing something new. And I don't think they can, I don't know, man. I don't see enough skepticism. Like I look at this stuff and I'm going like, what is different? Like what is it that you guys are reinventing here that I don't know? Like I'm not seeing anything new. And not only that, you're gonna have a hard time telling me that anyone in BJJ can do something, create a methodology that is more efficient.

than what Olympic level coaches in Russia have been doing for hundreds of years. You know, we're judo trainers, we're boxing trainers. Like, I don't have a hard time convincing me that our methods are better than theirs. That some guy, you know, with like, you know, 10 years of judo, so we can create a better methodology than those guys. I don't have a hard time believing that. So I don't think the community is a weight, man. Like, I think people are just, they drink the Kool-Aid daily. And I see this from smart people too, because they get overwhelmed with it.

And then some of these people control the narrative. if you're walking in as you're just today, it's very easy to fall prey to these guys. But like, cranio shift.

Ross Cameron (38:26.167)
Hmm. So do you think Rob, do you think like the YouTube, the YouTube jujitsu guys, the Instagram jujitsu guys, there's, there's some guys out there that, that are trending because they come up with the, the, the cool names for things and

Drysdale (38:48.27)
Yes, yes, look, look. The only thing, there are very few things I see that are really new. For example, there's a lot of heel hook attacks that really are new. You know why? It's not because purple belts today are smarter than they were 30 years ago, even though they like to think so. It's because it was illegal. It's like getting good at eye gouging. Why isn't anyone good at eye gouging? Oh, because it's illegal. Why bother? I mean, you could practice twisting fingers too. I'm sure there's tons of techniques to twist fingers.

But we don't practice it, it's illegal. It's the same thing with Yo-ho. So they didn't practice it. My generation didn't practice them, or barely, because they were illegal. Simple as that. Once they're made legal, or tournaments at least, that are allowing them, then yeah, sure, there's gonna be some evolution. There's some new stuff there that I'm super interested in. But in general, man, the majority of things I see, like it's just the same old shit. They just revamp it, add a new name, you know, make it sexy, spin it around, like do a thing or two slightly different. But the core of it is the same stuff.

Like, and I just, I have a hard time falling in love with, and this is a huge mistake coaches make, they put this hyper focus on that, right, on trends. And then comes the psychological aspect of things and the methodological aspect of things, or even the hierarchy on the mats, or other things that create a strong group like loyalty. They're completely either amiss about it or they're militant against it.

Ross Cameron (39:51.469)
Yeah, I-

Drysdale (40:07.936)
Which is like so bizarre to me because like I thought it was about performance and if it's about performance then we have to optimize it every way we can. And I think there's this hyper focus on novelty and entertainment and this is a detriment to performance and it's very obvious to me like how this is happening. But you know people don't think so because you can't if you start talking about true performance Ross you can't sell an instructional. There's no money to be made from it.

So why are you gonna highlight something you can't make money from? It's too simple, shut up and train. But now if you're gonna tell people that you reinvented the wheel and you're call shoulder pressure the cranio shift method or system, then you can make money from that. So if there's a hyper focus on the things that are financially rewarding instead of the things that are actually practical for purposes of performance.

Ross Cameron (40:34.316)
Yeah.

Ross Cameron (40:57.267)
It's, it's, it's interesting because like back in, back in my day, we used to call combinations different things, because when you went to fight, you didn't want to say, I'll throw the one too, because the other corner, we go, what's out for the jab cross. So we would call them different things, but that was just a way of using code to get the fighters to do things. But now they change names, like it's left, right and center just to be cool.

Drysdale (41:26.144)
Yeah, no, I remember like look I it really is a training thing remember like in the eighties guys were doing like all sorts of like spinning kicks and Fucking nunchucks, whatever not to each their own. Okay to which their own man, like I don't judge like I Like there's some things I see in the mother marshal arts that I go There's no fucking way that would work in a fight, but hey, it makes you happy to each their own, you know But but you just was become that like you're watching this lapel stuff. It's but schooling stuff. I have a very objective

Ross Cameron (41:38.349)
Ha

Drysdale (41:56.034)
view of things. There are things that are eternal. They're not going anywhere. There's a reason why they're not going anywhere. They work. Jab, right hand, cross, single leg, double leg, head and arm, guillotine, renegade choke. There's like, I've narrowed it down. I actually have a list of moves that I pulled from USC statistics. Comes down to 40 moves that we actually use. It's the first, I'm putting together like a...

with a curriculum, I call it the first empirical curriculum anymore because there's nothing like that. just it's always a speculation. I think this would work or I like these moves. Therefore, they're to make it with curriculum, which is not the best way to approach things. You know, like what how efficient is this move? Right. And these are the things that would last, you know, as long as there's combat in a dual format, they're going to be there, you know, like more than one opponent and weapons notwithstanding these techniques will always be there unless human anatomy changes.

So when I see lapel guard and I see like some of those spinning kicks that don't work, I'm going, that's going to go. It's going to go. It's just a matter of time. Cause if, and I said this in a podcast in Brazil and Bruce Lee fans were losing their minds and I don't mean to offend. I don't mean to offend, but you have to be objective and truthful in these things. But if the trapping system were so great, you would see it in the UFC.

You know, like I'm saying, I'm like, there's some of these things, I'm not against them. Like, hey, but I'm saying that when it comes to objectivity, lapel guard, you can't obviously use a lapel guard in UFC, but even if you had two guys walking in there in the gates to fight, if lapel guards are such a great idea when punches are involved, you would probably see them in that sort of duel, but you wouldn't see that punches are involved because it wouldn't work. It would butt scooting. So like you have to be practical about like, what is it that the things that are,

Objectively efficient in combat to me that's the direction we should be pursuing when it comes to teaching You know, and and I think a lot of people miss these things because they fall in love with what they know This is what I know something to keep teaching and just passes on but it's not Optimized for purpose of performance is more to the tune of what they like and are comfortable with You understand and again, I don't mean to offend to each their own There's value and anything that gives your life purpose and meaning and helps you work out and keeps you healthy a

Drysdale (44:13.504)
run with it, you know? But I think if we're talking about performance, like, it has to be more objective, you know? And this goes for all martial arts.

Ross Cameron (44:25.985)
So we're coming to the end. And if you could roll with one person or train with one martial artist out of history, who would it be and why?

Drysdale (44:39.133)
Carlson, Gracie, I think Carlson was, to me, one of his students, one of his American students said this in private conversation with me the other day, and I couldn't agree more. He said, Carlson is a definition of a true great martial artist, like a great grandmaster. Like he checks every box. To me, he checks every box. The reason we don't see him that way.

All right, is because our traditional understanding of a great martial artist or grand master is that guy in the Bruce Lee movie with the long white beard that talks like Master Yoda. You know, I don't buy that character. I think it's a phenomenal character for movies and cartoons. But in the real world, I'm very suspicious. Anyone who's talking more than they're doing is like already raising red flags. You know, Carlson did it. He fought the best of his time. He was the best coach of his time. He had a heart of gold.

He put a martial arts and the growth of jujitsu ahead of everything else included his financial standing his personal life He was a man dedicated to his students and the art he loved, you know Huge charisma not pretending not flexing not bragging hence why no one knows him to me He checks every box man. Like sure. He was a goofball, you know He didn't play the part that people expect him to play but that's a character. That's lore It's a stereotype when it comes down to it man, like when it comes to the ethics of combat

I think a like Kross checks every box.

Ross Cameron (46:10.732)
Great. Well, thanks for your time, Rope. It's good to catch up again, mate. Good to see you.

Drysdale (46:16.342)
Likewise, and we got to, yeah, we'll be, we got to start planning my trip to Australia this year. We'll come back this year at some point. Miss you guys and hopefully get you guys out here. You know.

Ross Cameron (46:21.249)
Yep.

Ross Cameron (46:25.997)
Yeah, we're planning, I think we're planning to hit up in about June, I think at the moment. maybe we come up for the US nationals.

Drysdale (46:30.734)
Yeah.

I guess we have the Nationals in end of June. So we always have a shot at getting on that podium if we work together as a team. The problem is getting people here, know. So maybe this year.

Ross Cameron (46:42.813)
Yep.

Yeah. Great. Awesome. to see you on your turf, mate. We've always seen you here.

Drysdale (46:46.819)
Alright.

I see, see... Yes, Bible, please, you guys owe me a visit, just, just, anytime.

Ross Cameron (46:54.759)
Thanks mate. See you soon. Catch up soon. See you Rob. Thanks mate.